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सोलट्रिप,
चांगली लिंक दिली आहेस.
लेखकाने सद्य परिस्थीती मांडली आहे.लगेच आता त्यावर ऊजव्या विचारसरनीचा म्हनुन टिका होनार.
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Laalbhai,
You did not answer any of my questions. Perhaps you do not have pointed answers. That's why you have resorted to broad generalizations. From your last post I have realized that you do not want to have a fair to the point debate. All you want is to mislead people by making broad generalizations.
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Avinashi
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| | Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 4:05 pm: | 
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टीका कशाला कोण करेल,टिकेची पण एक पद्धत असते.. टीका आणि चर्चा नेहमी बरोबरीने मुद्दे मांडणार्यात होते!
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Laalbhai
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| | Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 4:26 pm: |
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Lokhtwadi,
I have answered all your doubts. All your points are repeated ones and I have already given clarifications for all your points..
Should you read the discussion from the beginning, you would understand this. Whether you call it generalization or anything, fact is fact. Socity "still" needs to support oppressed class and reservations helps for this!
All your other points of quality/sharing resources etc., does not have sound statistics to prove them.
Mind well, to make an impact which will last long for generations, 50 years is very less time period. Here, again, I will not predict how many years we need all these things. It depends on lot of things.. as we already discussed.
As current situation goes, our socity needs reservations. Ours is a democratic country, so you can have different point of view. It is good that you are thinking for the betterment of the socity. But unfortunately, your points and observations are quite superficial and does not reciprocate needs of the socity.
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गुड अवीनाशी,
चला, तुला त्या लेखकाचे मुद्दे पटले तर. अरे पण माझ्या हि अनेक पोस्ट्स मधे मी अशेच काही मुद्दे मांडत होतो ( खास करुन हिंदु- मुस्लीम चर्चेत) मग का वादावादी? तो BB च बंद पडला शेवटी.
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Peshawa
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| | Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 4:36 pm: |
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१. खुपच प्रभवि मध्यम आहे वह conclude केलेच आहे तर आता बाप दाखवा असेहि म्हतलेच पहिजे...
२. गुण कमि म्हणजे गुणवत्त कमि नाहि... well I pray u explain all the evaluation processes, their pros and cons and the difficulties on choosing one that best fits the given sample
२. शिक्शणाच्य सुविधा आणि अरक्षण दोन वेगळे मुद्दे आहेत? is that so how?
संपूर्ण समाज एका समान पातळीवर येऊन स्वतः स्वतःची जबाबदारी घेऊ शकेल या पातळीवर येणे.
३. हा exit parameter aahe? better say कि reservations कायमच असलि पाहिजेत!
४. लाल मुद्द ५. u kidding me? समजाला म्हणजे कोणला परत येणारे त्याच समाजाचा घटक आहेत. ते संख्येने कमि म्हणुन त्यांचे problems कमि महत्वाचे कसे होतात?
५. ते विधायक भुमिका घेतिलच पण तुमचि judge बनायचि * ज जात नाही त्याचे काय? ते उद्योग जि भुमिका घेतील ति तुमच्या " द्रुष्तिने " विधायक असायला पहिजे असे म्हणा ना...
६. सामाजिक समतेच्या बाबतीत आपण फारच प्राथमिक पातळीवर आहोत
सामाजिक समता म्हणजे काय? आर्थिक समता हे लाल पुराणतील वांगे असेल तर ऐकायची इच्चा नाही. अजुन कसलि समानता असेल तर जरूर ऐकायला आवडेल प्रवचन! आनि समानता आनी reservations हे समनर्थि कसे झाले हे कळले तर " आनि त्याला सत्य कळून चुकले " अशि म्या पामराचि स्थिती होईल!
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Lokhtwadi,
I have answered all your doubts. All your points are repeated ones and I have already given clarifications for all your points..
-----I don't think you did, because in the immediate posts you resorted to generalizations. I differ with you on this one.
Should you read the discussion from the beginning, you would understand this. Whether you call it generalization or anything, fact is fact.
--------You can easily paste the relevant part of those to answer the "pointed questions". But you did not choose to. May be because your previous comments could be similarly generic and did not address any of the specific points.
Socity "still" needs to support oppressed class and reservations helps for this!
-------The first part of this clause is not up for debate, the second clause is. I am not saying that we should not help them. I am saying that reservation is NOT the way to help them.
All your other points of quality/sharing resources etc., does not have sound statistics to prove them.
---You did not need to say that. I have already said that one can't provide statistics for such points because no known institution measures them. But a fact (based on my observations) remains that, in whatever job/service the reservation proportion has increased the overall quality has dropped. If you do not share this observation, I am not asking you to change yours. In fact I am not even blaming the people whom I refer to as "fruits of reservation" for the decrease in quality. I am blaming the reservation itself, because that is the cause. No matter which job you do you must have qualified people to do it. Without those can you even expect your next generation to be at least equivalently qualified ? Having reservation now (after providing it for nearly 50 years) in job defeats that. I in fact say that reservation was necessary when our country got its independance, but after 60 years, it is not OR at least do not increase it.
Mind well, to make an impact which will last long for generations, 50 years is very less time period. Here, again, I will not predict how many years we need all these things. It depends on lot of things.. as we already discussed.
--- Your scheme seems to be "reservation at infinitum" which if implemented would mean that "india would remain at its current state for a long before it can come to developed nations' level OR may not even come to that level".
As current situation goes, our socity needs reservations. Ours is a democratic country, so you can have different point of view.
---First statement is your opinion which is being questioned by me and second one is a known fact, no debate here.
It is good that you are thinking for the betterment of the socity.
----- What did you think about me ? Just because I oppose reservation, do you think I am evil and hate backward class ? Well, honestly, I would like to help them as much as you would. Thanks anyways for removing your black glasses.
But unfortunately, your points and observations are quite superficial and does not reciprocate needs of the socity.
--- I can say the same thing that your points do not reflect the needs of the society. We are all discussing this issue to find a solution. These statements have no meaning in them because they have come out of lack of anything meaningful to say. I am trying to learn something from you if you can show one reasonable argument for the increasing the scope of reservation and debating with you for the same. Such statement won't work.
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Laalbahi,
One more thing. You seem to contradicting yourselves many times. Sometimes you say reservation did not achieve anything for past fifty years. At other times you say reservation is a very effective instrument to speed the progress. I hope you make these statements with with India in perspective. What happens to the effectiveness of reservation if it cannot achieve anything in last 50 years ? Please clarify. OR do you mean that reservation in general, is a slow process which should take more than 50 years ?
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Now I putting forth some of my thoughts rather than questioning Laalbhai.
1. Start with reservation in primary/elementary education. Provide it for free to backward class in all schools (private/public). Keep a a good ratio of BC/FC candidates everywhere including private schools.
2. Provide incentives to backward class students in primary education. Start providing scholarships to top 10 BC candidates in each school. Save some part of this money for the higher education of the candidate.
3. Assign a forward class mentor/guardian to each BC student and it should be made mandatory for those FC folks whose kids are students. Make the progress of BC student a responsibility of mentor.
4. In fact, it should be made mandatory for every one who earns money beyond certain amount to adopt 2/3 students.
First we need quality BC students who can really compete and replace FC candidates.
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Soultrip
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 5:38 am: |
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Lalbhai said "All your other points of quality/sharing resources etc., does not have sound statistics to prove them." >>>>
1. What statistics you have given so far Mr.Laal? (May I say 'Mao kaa Laal'? ) I had asked you same pointed question & you tactically withdrew!
2.I also see your repeated reference of Infosys. Your interpretation is that it is supprting private reservations. You are absolutely wrong! Murthy has on record said that they will provide free 'training' for SOME SC/ST/NT/OBC students. (mind well the word training)If some resources are clever enough (to pass the Infosys entrance test\interview), THEN ONLY they MIGHT be absorbed in the company. So, pl. stop refering its example. The other IT stalwart Mr. Premji has on record OPPOSED reservations in private sector.
3. Mao’s most famous quote: “I don’t mind whether the cat is black or white as long as it catches mouse!”
I see this as a pure capitalist view like “I don’t mind whether the resource is SC/ST/OBC or from open category, as long as s/he DELIVERS RESULTS to the company!”
4. Still, if you & your party belives SO MUCH in reservations in private sector, why not walk the talk in your home state & implement that policy in West Bengal? Can Buddha Bhatta. do it???
On the contrary I see him hobnobbing with blue-blood capitalists like Mukesh Ambani & Ratan Tata.
5. So forget the poor & failed communism & join some good private company & be rich, ethically & thru' legal means. (Who knows, you might be already working with some MNC/IT co. minting/splurging money & still shading crocodiles' tears for the so-called under-privileged class!)
6. It makes much more sense to be rich & donate substantial sum to charity (la Gates, Buffet style) than just making hollow noise about helping down-troddens.
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Laalbhai
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 9:53 am: |
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lokhitwadi,
Debating is not sumo-wrestling. Kindly, have your common-sense in place before you answer.
--------You can easily paste the relevant part of those to answer the "pointed questions". But you did not choose to. May be because your previous comments could be similarly generic and did not address any of the specific points
I am not answering any exam where question paper is set by you. Participation in this debate is your own wish. No one forced you to jump in. If you want answers, you need to take some efforts.
-------The first part of this clause is not up for debate, the second clause is. I am not saying that we should not help them. I am saying that reservation is NOT the way to help them.
Had you been serious about the debate, you had suggested alternate way.
In current situation, there is no alternate way. With all your wit, intelligence and wide-spread knowledge of Indian socity, pray suggest alternative, where you can bring up most poor and opressed class in main-stream.
---You did not need to say that. I have already said that one can't provide statistics for such points because no known institution measures them. But a fact (based on my observations) remains that, in whatever job/service the reservation proportion has increased the overall quality has dropped.... etc etc
No generalization please. Let us not proceed on this topic unless you have enough statistics. Our own observations do not stand in the debate. My observation is contradicting your observation!
--- Your scheme seems to be "reservation at infinitum" which if implemented would mean that "india would remain at its current state for a long before it can come to developed nations' level OR may not even come to that level".
Our defination of developed nation is different. Unless fruits of development reach to smallest part of the socity, poorest class of the socity, we will not call it as "development". We are fighting for it. In turn, we are helping nation to grow with balance maintained!
----- What did you think about me ? Just because I oppose reservation, do you think I am evil and hate backward class ? Well, honestly, I would like to help them as much as you would. Thanks anyways for removing your black glasses.
Have common-sense in place. I appreciated you!
.....I am trying to learn something from you if you can show one reasonable ... bla bla bla...
No, you are not trying to learn anything! You are verbally wrestling with me. I do not have any objection on that. But I can choose not to wrestle with you in reciprocation. So if you want to have nice debate, please be a gentleman!
Thanks.
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Laalbhai
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 9:58 am: |
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Peshavaa..
Could you explain me the pdf file you wanted to throw in the discussion? I would love to read your understanding of that paper.
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Soultrip
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 10:43 am: |
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Fantastic! You only set the rules, you only ask for stats (without reciprocating it even once in the whole debate) & you only choose some (easy) questions to anwer, you only generalize (when other do, immediately ask for stats!) & you only cry foul umpteen number of time (saying verbal wrestling et al)! & to top it all, the sickening condescending, holier-than-thou attitude!
Great! How much they pay for such unrelenting propaganda?
Guys, let's stop this debate unilaterally (before this BB is locked) Enough said. We are going no where here. It is only giving some elements a chance to hammer sick philosophy every day!!
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Laalbhai
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 10:48 am: |
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One more thing. You seem to contradicting yourselves many times. Sometimes you say reservation did not achieve anything for past fifty years. At other times you say reservation is a very effective instrument to speed the progress. I hope you make these statements with with India in perspective. What happens to the effectiveness of reservation if it cannot achieve anything in last 50 years ? Please clarify. OR do you mean that reservation in general, is a slow process which should take more than 50 years ?
lokhitawadi,
I NEVER said reservation SPEED UP the progress. Show me where I said this!
Reservations helps poor class/ opressed class to join the main stream.
The reasons why reservation could not achieve desired results in last 50 years, as I have already explained, lack of awareness, aloofness (or selfishness) of so called developed class, and lethargy on governmental front.
This does not mean that reservations are completely useless and we should discard them.
Moreover, you can suggest alternative and most effective way to help poor and opressed class. If we find your suggestion to be most suitable, we will recommed Central Government to implement those schemes with immediate effect.
As per the experience of people who understand Indian socity on larger extent, reservations is the MOST effective way. Other suppliments should be provided to make reservations more effective. (This I am repeating nth time.)
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Maudee
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
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अरे देवनागरी वर्ज्य आहे का या bb ला?? 
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Soultrip
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 10:56 am: |
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As per the experience of people who understand Indian socity on larger extent, reservations is the MOST effective way. Other suppliments should be provided to make reservations more effective. (This I am repeating nth time.)>>>>
...As if somebody has spent whole life studying Indian society & so has been given license to pass on such free-wheeling condescending OPINION.
Other supplements should be provided>> ...More hollow, generic words (rather, cliche apt for a seasoned politician!)
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Laalbhai
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 10:57 am: |
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We are going no where here.
Yes, for you it may be the fact, so you better do not participate in the debate. (This is kind suggestion. Please think on it.) Anyway, other that abusing communism you are not adding anything useful to this discussion. Then why, my friend, are you wasting your useful time? Please go and work, your manager will be more happy and you will get more salary hike. Please save your time for yourself, and you will help socity much more.
holier-than-thou attitude
In fact, it is! We are thinking for the entire socity. Not for particular class. The moment you come out of your selfish attitude, you will understand it!
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>>>>>> अरे देवनागरी वर्ज्य आहे का या bb ला??
अगदी अगदी माऊडी, मी पण हेच सन्गणार होतो
पण माझी "शनि बुध मन्गळ" अशी तिहेरी युती चालु हे म्हणुन मला एका ज्योतिषाने सान्गितले की एक शब्दाने देखिल वाद घालु नकोस, सुचना करु नकोस, अन्यथा अर्थाचा अनर्थ होइल, म्हणुन चुपचाप गुमान मिन्ग्लिशच्या लाल डोन्गळ्यान्च्या रान्गा डोळ्यासमोरुन हाकलतो हे!  DDD
अन मला वेगळाच प्रश्ण भेडसावतो हे!
यान्ची ही "साधक बाधक" चर्चा ज्या जमातीन्करता चालली हे त्यान्ना यातला एक शब्द तरी कोणी समजावुन सान्गेल काय? की सान्गितला तर त्यान्ना समजेल? की त्यान्च्या करता फक्त एकेक वाक्याचे "भान्डारकर तो झांकी है, शनिवारवाडा बाकी है" असे ऍक्शन प्लॅन्स दिले जातिल?  DDD
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Soultrip
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 11:13 am: |
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Anyway, other that abusing communism>>>
..झोंबलं वाटतं खरं बोललं की!
...& I thought I could help this 2-cents worth commi journo! तुमच्या पालथ्या घडावर पाणी! चालु दे तुमचं एरंडाचं गुर्‍हाळ!!
Rather येथे अनुल्लेखाने मारणेच शहाणपणा होईल.
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Laalbhai
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| | Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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"भान्डारकर तो झांकी है, शनिवारवाडा बाकी है" असे ऍक्शन प्लॅन्स दिले जातिल?
वादाला वेगळा रंग दिला जाण्याचा प्रयत्न होतोय म्हणून या वाक्याची दखल घेणे आवश्यक आहे.
हा काही विशिष्ठ लोकांचा पूर्वग्रह आहे की आरक्षणांच्या बाजूने बोलणे म्हणजे संभाजी ब्रिगेडच्या बाजूने बोलणे. हा शुद्ध नंदीबैलपणा आहे. (आठवते का? मी सवर्णातले मंदबुद्धी म्हणालो होतो?)
मी ज्या गांजलेल्या समाजाबद्दल बोलतोय त्यांचा आणि संभाजी ब्रिगेडचा काही संबंध नाही.
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| मायबोली |
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| चोखंदळ ग्राहक |
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| महाराष्ट्र धर्म वाढवावा |
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| व्यक्तिपासून वल्लीपर्यंत |
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| पांढर्‍यावरचे काळे |
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| गावातल्या गावात |
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| तंत्रलेल्या मंत्रबनात |
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| आरोह अवरोह |
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| शुभंकरोती कल्याणम् |
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| विखुरलेले मोती |
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