|
>>>> Being Hindu, I don't find anything objectionable in just mouthing 'Durga', 'Allah'.
हैऽऽय शैलेश, ऍण्ड बीईन्ग अ प्राऊड मायबोलीकर, आय आल्सो डोण्ट फ़ाईण्ड एनीथिन्ग रिडेबल इन युवर रोमन पोस्ट!  DDD
अग मूडी, समझा करो याऽऽर! तुझ नाव पोस्ट करता म्हणुन "हात उसन" घेतल होत!  दुसर्‍या कुणाच घेवु शकणार होतो? अन तो आशय, सर्वनाम वापरुन साध्य होत नव्हता! 
दिनेश७७, अभिप्रायाबद्दल थॅन्क्यू! बाकीच्यान्ना पण थॅन्क्यू!
|
Soultrip
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 6:45 am: | 
| 
|
Being Hindu, I don't find anything objectionable in just mouthing 'Durga', 'Allah'. Hoever, if a perfectly peaceful person refuses to mouth these words, I don't have much problem.>>>>
...That's the crux of the problem Shailesh! We Hindus are brought up in the secular environment, so mouthing such platitude, we indirectly help in diluting our religion. Whereas the fanatics succeed in insisting that 'their religion is above state', which MUST NOT be tolerated at any cost!
One country, one law ..is the simple solution!! But the vote-bank mongers have conveniently forgotten it & have hardened the lines of SC/ST/NT/OBC/Shia/Sunnee etc.etc.
---
हज ला जाताना सबसिडी जरूर द्यावी.
किम्बहुना त्यान्ची सरकारी खर्चाने शाही बडदास्त ठेवावी
फक्त एक अट असावी
या जाण्याला येणे नाही. >>>
लाखात एक बोललात कुलकर्णी!
|
I don't see any value in arguing 'practise intolerance to weed out intolerance'.
If I believe, my practises are fair, why should I change my behavior?
I also don't think we are so 'fair' as explained in my above post (regarding preferring cast over religion/region/nation).
The behavior that we accuse them of, is practised by us also.
|
Soultrip
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 8:27 am: |
|
|
Shailesh:We are mixing issues here.
If a Hindu doesn't object singing 'alla, rahim, akabar' in so many songs, why whould an Indian muslim object to singing the most-patriotic song of Vande Mataram with some stanzas referring to the worship of Goddess Durga??? Their ----- religion also tells that there is NO place of 'kaafirs' (i.e. any non-muslim) in the whole world. Their clear dictat is 'we will either convert you or kill you'. Do you want to practise tolerance here??
How much 'fair' we can be with their barbaric religion???
It is so hip & fashionable to be pseudo-secular. But mark my words, if nothing concrete is done, our progeny after 50 years would be either Akabar or Anthony, Aayesha or Annie!! Jammu-Kashmir, Kerala & the whole of North-East India bear the testimonial of this bitter truth!!!
|
Since you think, we are mixing issues; let's keep aside argument on faith and just talk about insistance on singing Vande Mataram.
My only question is, does it make a person any better by merelly reciting certain words.
And I'll appreciate if you can continue this argument w/o getting judgemental.
|
>>>> If a Hindu doesn't object singing 'alla, rahim, akabar' in so many songs, why whould an Indian muslim object to singing the most-patriotic song of Vande Mataram with some stanzas referring to the worship of Goddess Durga???
व्हेरी गुड पॉईण्ट सौल!
|
>>>> My only question is, does it make a person any better by merelly reciting certain words.
तस असेल तर कोर्टात दिली जाणारी किन्वा घेतल्या जाणार्‍या शपथेलाही अर्थ नाही अन इन्डेम्निटीला किन्वा अफेडेव्हीटलाही अर्थ नाही असच म्हणाव लागेल
अन कशातच काही अर्थ नाही अस एकदा मान्य केल की कसल राष्ट्र अन कसला देशाभिमान अन कसल काय?
जे काही चाल्लय ते आपापल्या टीचभर पोटाची खळगी रोजच्या रोज भरण्याकरता केलेला अष्टौप्रहर प्रयत्न! किडामुन्गी सारखाच!
नाही, पण किडामुन्गीची उपमा देता येत नाही, मुन्ग्यात पण एक राणी असते अन तिची प्रजा असते, त्यान्ची सैन्ये असतात अन कामकरी अधिकारी अशी वर्गवारी असते, त्यान्च्यात देखिल शिस्त असते, लाल, काळ्या, पान्ढर्‍या अशा रन्गान्वरुन आकारावरुन बिहेवियरवरुन जाती असतात!
छे छे छे, एकदा कशात काही अर्थ नाही अस मानवान मान्य केल्यावर हे असले सगळे कसे लागु होइल? नाही का?
चालुद्या तुमच!
आज गडबडीत हे, नन्तर समाचार घेईन! DDD
शैलेश, देवनागरीत का लिहित नाही?
|
Oath is not mere recital. It carries punishment if you break it.
Anyway.
If I am allowed to speculate; we, Hindu, do not mind reciting 'Allah' because we accept that the God can be in any form. Muslims, as against, believe in one form and that form happens to be abstract, shapeless.
Factually, the opposition is mere divisive politics, based on this technicality. And as are the pro arguments.
What I'm trying to say, we need to address the objectionable behavior and fix that. Forcing something, and something irrelevant, is not going to address this problem.
As for not writing in devnagari, the typing gets too distracting for me, especially when I'm in deep argument like this.
|
Himscool
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 9:15 am: |
|
|
हे वाचा, http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1943692.cms
झारखंड मध्ये 'वंदे मातरम्' म्हणणे सक्तीचे करणार आहेत
|
Soultrip
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
|
|
My only question is, does it make a person any better by merelly reciting certain words >>>>
On the face of it, the answer, as you expect is NO. But that is only at the philosohical level or at symantic level.
As Limbu aptly put it, it has much more significance beyond words. Faith, patriotism though relative terms, they matter a lot! (It is like asking 'what was wrong with British rule? Does it matter who rules? Does it matter if my country is attcked? After all it is 'vasudhaiv kutumbakam'!) Or, ask soldiers, freedom-fighters & any Indian worth-his-salt the significance of Vande Mataram. Those words have TRANSCENDED the mundane meaning & reached ETHERAL quality of hymns!
You are saying, "does it make a person any better by merelly reciting certain words?" ... Stretching this logic a bit, one can say, "does it make a country any better by merely drawing boundaries on earth?" Nehru donated land to Chinese by the same stupid logic! (saying, even grass doesn't grow on such a barren land, what is the use? so give it so Chinese!)
NO SIR, we need to stick to some values, have strong faith in our country, its anthem & monuments.
A country is not a mere collection of people, nor it is a piece of land.
It is a rich collection of people passionately united to SAVE their motherland from evil eyes, FIGHT for its lawful existence & PROSPER in their cherished MOTHERLAND! Long Live भारत !!!
|
Oath is not mere recital. It carries punishment if you break it.
exactly, but it is permissable by law to punish!
आणि दुर्दैवाने फ्लॅग कोड सोडला तर अन्य राष्ट्रीय गोष्टीन्बद्दलच्या अनादराबद्दल कुठेही शिक्षेची तरतुद दिसत नाही किन्वा असल्यास पाळली जात नाही हे वास्तव हे!
न पाळणार्‍यात धर्माधारीत कारणाने मुस्लिम बहुसन्ख्येने हेत तर कम्युनिस्टान्ची छुपी सन्ख्याही काही कमी नाही! पण तो विषय नाही!
तुम्ही (व्हक्तिशः नाही, अनेकजण!) बरेच प्रष्ण एकातुन निर्माण करीत चाल्ला हात! एकुण चर्चेतुन मला समजले तेवढे पुढे लिहितो (खर तर आज अजीबात मूड नाही हे एक शब्दही लिहिण्याचा)
१) वन्दे मातरम म्हणायची सक्ती का करावी? ते राष्ट्रगीत म्हणुन मान्यता प्राप्त हे का?
२) वन्दे मातरम किन्वा तत्सम उच्चारुनच केवळ देशभक्ती सिद्ध होते का? न म्हणणार्‍यान्च्या मनात देशभक्ती नाहीचे असे कशावरुन गृहित धरता?
३) एखाद्याने ते म्हणले तरी तो देशद्रोही किन्वा अतिरेकी असु शकणार नाही का?
४) असे असेल तर अशा सक्ती करण्यात व्यर्थ शक्ती का दवडावी?
५) मुस्लिम समाजाचा वन्देमातरम म्हणण्यास असलेला विरोध का हे? त्यान्च्या धर्माधारीत मतान्चा आणि इच्छेचा आपण स्विकार करु शकत नाही का?
६) त्यान्नी म्हणले नाही तर काय आभाळ कोसळणार हे?
७) सक्ती करुन म्हणावयास लावुन त्यान्च्यात देशप्रेम उत्पन्न होइल असे वाटते का?
८) दरवेळेस बाह्यात्कारी पद्धतीने "त्यान्नी" देशप्रेम व्यक्त करावेच अशी सक्ती का म्हणुन?
मला वाटत की मी उत्पन्न होत असलेले पुरेसे प्रश्ण मान्डलेत!
आता व्हा सुरू.....
|
You making a speech like a politician.
For a moment, don't get emotional and think rationally.
What is important for us? Inducing and maintaining love for mother-land.
How do we go about it?
I don't see it happening by seemingly forcing it on a set of people. Seemingly because, that set of people, for long, for a correct reason or not, refused to carry it out. The action is going to be percieved as forced. I don't see it inducing love for BHARAT-MATA.
The effect is going to be exactly opposite.
So what have you ahieved, besides actually fulfilling the wish of those politicians who started this game.
|
>>>> besides actually fulfilling the wish of those politicians who started this game.
there r u man! Now got it. तुम्हाला हा पॉलिटिशीयन्स्चा गेम वाट्टोय, आम्हाला तस वाटत नाही, आणि तस न वाटणारे असन्ख्यच नव्हे तर बहुसन्ख्येनेत! एनीवे! तुम्हाला जे वाट्टय तेच जर केन्द्रातल्या सत्ताधार्‍यान्ना वाटत असेल तर त्यान्ना त्या अज्ञानातच राहूदे की "वन्देमातरम" वरील तन्टा हा केवळ काही हिन्दुत्ववादी सत्ताकान्क्षी राजकीय पक्षान्चा खेळ हे! वाटु दे! जरूर!
>>>>> What is important for us? Inducing and maintaining love for mother-land.
How do we go about it?
मला "दारुल इस्लाम" की "हरब" की कायसेसे, या शब्दाने सुरु होणारे दोन शब्द हवे त (आठवत नाहीयेत आत्ता) ज्यान्चा अर्थ १) आपली मूळ भुमी जिथे इस्लाम पुर्णपणे अम्मलात हे २) अशि भुमी जी अद्यापी काफिरान्च्या तावडी थे किन्वा जिच्यावर कब्जा करुन काफिरान्चा नायनाट करायचा हे!
वरील दोन अर्थाचे शब्द कुणी सान्गु शकेल का? तर मग शैलेशरावान्ना मला विचारता येइल की असे दोन अर्थ शिकवणित असताना "कोणाच्या" "कोणत्या" "मदरलॅण्ड" ???? बद्दल कशा भावना असतील!
|
Soultrip
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 10:47 am: |
|
|
What is important for us? Inducing and maintaining love for mother-land.
How do we go about it? >>>
Exactly! There are ways to inculcate patriotism right from childhood. Singing anthem, reciting pledge are all important tools to achieve that objective. There was a very good attempt during NDA regime, but it was crassly branded as 'fascist exercise'!
If our politicians give mixed signals (like, it is ok not to sing anthem or it is ok not to recite pledge ins school), these elements get a boost in their evil agenda.
Nothing wrong in coercion as long as it is for collective right for the state! Our unncessarily tolerance (read, फाजिल लाड! ) have motivated these scumbags to go further ahead.
To top it all, the so-called 'विचारवंत आणि बुद्धीवादी amongst us are supporting their cause indirectly/directly!
|
By politician, I was actually referring to Jinnah. There is link in Archive to Indian Express article on history of Vande Mataram.
Jinnah initially opposed on technical grounds. Nehru went back with proposal to sing first 2 stanzas which shouldn't have been objectionable. Jinnah still refused for political reasons. It doesn't take genious to realise why.
Unfortunately, the pro-argument are actually falling in this same trap of divisiveness.
BTW, can't you continue an argument without mocking the people who have different opinion?
|
Soultrip
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 11:08 am: |
|
|
You are not getting it. See, we have a LONG history of giving, a long history of yielding, a long hisotory of tolerance. e.g. your own example of Jinnah-Nehru arguments over Vande Mataram, Gandhi's stupid insistence of giving Rs. 55 crores to Pakistan (when it was equivalent of almost 30% of our own tiny budget at that time!), acceptance of shariat court, doling out subsidy to Haaj & madrasaa. The list is endless. (& what you got in return?? .. Millions of Hindus killed in partition riots, scores of Mumbai/Bhiwandi/Maalegaon/Surat/Ahmedabad riots, Mumbai bomb-blast (twice) & who knows, a conspiracy could be hatching at this very moment somewhere in Mumbai/Pune/Aurangabad/Beed/Maalegaon/Shrirampur (see, how they've infiltrated the entire state!)
..If we want to put a full-stop to such tragic deaths of thousands of such innocent Indians, it is high time that we put an end to such docile, stupid tolerance! It is high time that we put our foot firm & proclaim, this is the way.
Love it or leave it!!!
|
To my mind, we need different/accomodative solutions for these long running wounds. W/o them, in my mind, we will further injure our state.
Some of the examples you have quoted are quite incorrect. The 55mln wasn't a donation. When a nation devided, the resources available were devided, including presidential horses. The money was theirs. Nehru and Patel blocked the money for (correct) fear of that getting routed to military. Yet, that money was still theirs. Gandhi, being true moralist, opposed the blocking. I certainly admire him for following certain ethics in life.
|
Soultrip
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 11:35 am: |
|
|
I don't have that URL right now. But it was SHEER GOODWILL GESTURE on the part of some of our 'tolerant' leaders that time!
& It wasn't 55 Mln as you wrongly put it, it was 55 crores, i.e. 550 Millions.
I don't want to deviate the discussion by dragging Gandhi's ethics (or, absence of it) into this.
|
Moodi
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 11:36 am: |
|
|
ए कशाला रे भांडता आता वंदे मातरमवरुन? स्वतच्या भाषेत म्हणजे देवनागरी लिपीत( मराठी मातृभाषा) लिहायला तुम्हा लोकांना एवढा त्रास होतोय, आधी स्वतःपासुन सुरुवात करा अन मग दुसर्‍यांना सांगा. 
|
Soultrip
| |
| | Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 11:44 am: |
|
|
चर्चेचा परिसंहार्:
१. भारताने अल्पसंख्यांकाचे लांगुलचालन (फाजिल लाड) सत्वर थांबवले पाहिजेत.
२. वंदे मातरम मुळे जरी कोणत्या धर्माच्या भावना दुखावल्या गेल्या असल्या तरी 'मातृ-भुमी ही धर्मापेक्षाही श्रेष्ठ असते' या न्यायाने ते मुक्त-कंठे गावे.
३. अन्यथा आपापल्या धर्माला कुरवाळत आनंदाने देश-निर्गमन करावे.
ता.क. - 'अमृताते पैजा जिंकणारं मराठी' वापरलंय मूडी
|
|
| मायबोली |
|
| चोखंदळ ग्राहक |
|
| महाराष्ट्र धर्म वाढवावा |
|
| व्यक्तिपासून वल्लीपर्यंत |
|
| पांढर्‍यावरचे काळे |
|
| गावातल्या गावात |
|
| तंत्रलेल्या मंत्रबनात |
|
| आरोह अवरोह |
|
| शुभंकरोती कल्याणम् |
|
| विखुरलेले मोती |
|
|
|
|